BGE wrote:
> Hayal,
> I am going to take some time this 4 day weekend and compile my answers.
> Like you I believe scripture, and am very keen to preserve what is clear
> from scripture.
The area of sound doctrine and right biblical teaching is
> something I would die to preserve. Is Yeshua 100% the Father? No, but it
> is clear from one of his names that he is "GD with us".
Hayal Talmid:
The name "Immanuel" means that Yhwh is IN Yeshua, not that Yeshua IS
Yhwh. It is a slight, but absolutely critical difference. Yeshua is a
reflection or "express image"of Yhwh, like a mirror image, but a mirror
image is not "ontologically equal" to the one looking in the mirror.
Shatter the mirror, and the mirror image is gone. The one looking in
the mirror, though, doesn't necessarily disappear just because the
mirror is shattered. So likewise, Yhwh did not die just because Yeshua
was crucified, which is another disproof of "ontological equality" and
the "deity" of Yeshua.
Spirits can and do "inhabit" or "dwell in" people, but that doesn't
mean that those spirits ARE those people. The Spirit of Yhwh dwelt in
many Biblical heroes. In Yeshua, the "fullness of the Godhead DWELT
bodily," but that doesn't mean that Yeshua IS the Godhead.
Yeshua is a FUNCTION of Yhwh: Y = f(x), where Y = Yeshua, and x =
Yhwh. Yeshua is the "DEPENDENT variable." Yhwh is the "INDEPENDENT
variable." This is not "ontological equality," i.e. x = x, but if you
delve into trinitarian theology, you will find that the "ontological
equality" of Yhwh and Yeshua is absolutely PIVOTAL and is exactly what
is meant by the doctrine of the "deity" of Yeshua. It is an
overliteralization of "Immanuel," just as "transubstantiation" is an
overliteralization of Yeshua's commandment to "eat my flesh and drink
my blood." Both the "deity" of Yeshua and the doctrine of
"transubstantiation" are examples of the same 'overliteralization' or
the IDENTIFICATION OF A SYMBOL AS THE THING SYMBOLIZED. It is as if the
American flag, which symbolizes America, were regarded mystically as
America itself, not just a symbol. This is the idea of idolatry, too,
in which the true believer believes that the idol really is a god,
really is alive and powerful.
This is also probably the MAIN Jewish objection to Christianity, the
"transubstantiation" of Yeshua into Yhwh, which is regarded, and rightly
so, as idolatry. The imposition of the doctrine of the "deity" of
Yeshua in Messianic Judaism today, not to mention the doctrine of the
trinity, perpetuates this problem and, most importantly, turns YHWH
against Messianic Judaism. We will lose the battles ahead under these
circumstances. Yhwh will not back us up so long as we have this
"accursed Babylonian garment" among us:
Josh 7:11 "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My
covenant which I commanded them. For they have even taken some of the
accursed [Babylonian] things, and have both stolen and deceived; and
they have also put it among their own stuff.
Josh 7:12 "Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before
their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they
have become doomed to destruction. NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANYMORE,
UNLESS YOU DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU.
JOSH 7:13 "GET UP, SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE, AND SAY, 'SANCTIFY YOURSELVES
FOR TOMORROW, BECAUSE THUS SAYS YHWH GOD OF ISRAEL: "THERE IS AN
ACCURSED THING IN YOUR MIDST, O ISRAEL; YOU CANNOT STAND BEFORE YOUR
ENEMIES UNTIL YOU TAKE AWAY THE ACCURSED THING FROM AMONG YOU."
Hear my words! The situation now is the SAME as it was in this
passage! The story in Joshua of the Battle of Ai is a PARABLE.
Trinitarian dogma is that "accursed Babylonian thing," and those who are
imposing trinitarian dogma in Messianic Judaism today are "Achan," i.e.
TROUBLE.
BGE: I tend to want to
> live by faith and by the principle that if GD wanted me to understand all
> of this fully He would have written it in His word clearly. He did not.
Hayal Talmid:
I do not deny that there are hidden things in scripture, but scripture
is clear, too. Scripture does not teach trinitarian dogma. Trinitarian
dogma is anything but clear. Scripture teaches that Yhwh is infinite,
which is why He is "invisible." Do you know what a "GUI" is? A
"graphical user interface"? Yeshua is like a GUI. He is like those
objects on the computer screen, with which we can deal with the
computer, but a GUI is not "ontologically equal" to the computer. A GUI is made of computer
language, but it also consists of human language and ties the user and
the computer together. Yeshua is like that, but trinitarian dogma says,
in effect, that a GUI is "ontologically equal," "one in being" to the computer, which is
an overstatement.
BGE:
> So here we are, still to some degree talking in circles.
Hayal Talmid:
Please explain how I am talking in circles. I don't think I am. I
think I am talking straight.
BGE:
One thing I do
> not believe is that if you believe in a triune view of GD you have the
> mark of the beast.
Hayal Talmid:
Why not? This is what the evidence indicates. Most Jews don't believe
that it's important for them to believe in Yeshua, but it is. It is a
matter, not only of life and death but of salvation and damnation. Why,
then, should it not be a matter of life and death, or worse, to believe
that trinitarian dogma is "accursed"? If, because of rebelliousness,
Yhwh hides the Truth from most Jews, why, for the same reason, should He
not do the same thing in the case of rebellious Christianity? Indeed,
Yhwh is doing exactly what He said He would do:
Jer 25:12 'Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed,
that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the
Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says Yhwh; 'and I will make it a
perpetual desolation.
Jer 25:13 'So I will bring on that land all My words which I have
pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah
has prophesied concerning all the nations.
Jer 25:14 '(For many nations and great kings shall be served by them
also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to
the works of their own hands.)'"
Jer 25:15 For thus says Yhwh God of Israel to me: "Take this WINE CUP
OF FURY from My hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send you, to
drink it.
Jer 25:16 "And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the
sword that I will send among them."
Jer 25:17 Then I took the cup from Yhwh's hand, and made all the
nations drink, to whom Yhwh had sent me:
Jer 25:18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and its princes,
to make them a desolation, an astonishment, a hissing, and a curse, as
it is this day;
Jer 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his princes, and all his
people;
Jer 25:20 all the mixed multitude, all the kings of the land of Uz, all
the kings of the land of the Philistines (namely, Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron,
and the remnant of Ashdod);
Jer 25:21 Edom, Moab, and the people of Ammon;
Jer 25:22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings
of the coastlands which are across the sea;
Jer 25:23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who are in the farthest corners;
Jer 25:24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed
multitude who dwell in the desert;
Jer 25:25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the
kings of the Medes;
JER 25:26 ALL THE KINGS OF THE NORTH, FAR AND NEAR, ONE WITH ANOTHER;
AND ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD WHICH ARE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
Also the king of sheshach shall drink after them.
JER 25:27 "THEREFORE YOU SHALL SAY TO THEM, 'THUS SAYS YHWH OF HOSTS,
THE GOD OF ISRAEL: "DRINK, BE DRUNK, AND VOMIT! FALL AND RISE NO MORE,
BECAUSE OF THE SWORD WHICH I WILL SEND AMONG YOU."'
JER 25:28 "AND IT SHALL BE, IF THEY REFUSE TO TAKE THE CUP FROM YOUR
HAND TO DRINK, THEN YOU SHALL SAY TO THEM, 'THUS SAYS YHWH OF HOSTS:
"YOU SHALL CERTAINLY DRINK!
JER 25:29 "FOR BEHOLD, I BEGIN TO BRING CALAMITY ON THE CITY WHICH IS
CALLED BY MY NAME, AND SHOULD YOU BE UTTERLY UNPUNISHED? YOU SHALL NOT
BE UNPUNISHED, FOR I WILL CALL FOR A SWORD ON ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE
EARTH," SAYS YHWH OF HOSTS.'
Jer 25:30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to
them: 'Yhwh will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy
habitation; He will ROAR MIGHTILY against His fold. He will give a
SHOUT, as those who tread the grapes, Against ALL the inhabitants of the
earth.
Jer 25:31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth; For Yhwh has a
controversy with the NATIONS; He will plead His case with ALL FLESH. He
will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says Yhwh."
Jer 25:32 Thus says Yhwh of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth
From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the
farthest parts of the earth.
Jer 25:33 "And at that day the slain of Yhwh shall be from one end of
the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be
lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the
ground.
Jer 25:34 "Wail, SHEPHERDS, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You
LEADERS of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your
dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel.
Jer 25:35 And the SHEPHERDS will have no way to flee, Nor the LEADERS
of the flock to escape.
Jer 25:36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, And a wailing of the
leaders to the flock will be heard. For Yhwh has plundered their
pasture,
Jer 25:37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down Because of the fierce
anger of Yhwh.
Jer 25:38 He has left His lair like the lion; For their land is
desolate Because of the fierceness of the Oppressor, And because of His
fierce anger."
The "king of Babylon" in this passage also refers to the "god of this
age," i.e. Satan. The "Diaspora" is like a giant Babylonian captivity.
After Yhwh punishes Yisrael in the Diaspora and the "age of the
Gentiles," He will punish the nations, as described here. This is what
it means when it says in verse 29 that Yhwh will "bring calamity on the
city which is called by my name, and should you (Gentiles, "nations") be utterly unpunished?
You (Gentiles, "nations") shall not be unpunished, for I will call for a sword on all the
inhabitants of the earth." First Yhwh is punishing the Jews, just as He
did during the Babylonian captivity. Then Yhwh will punish the nations,
just as He punished ancient Babylon. The "cup of Yhwh's fury" is the
"secret doctrine" of antiquity, especially including the central ritual
of the ancient mysteries, which was a secret, which was transformed into
the Catholic "mass," which was forced upon the nations. Roman
Catholicism in particular is based upon the identification of Yeshua as
the sun god, Zeus, the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit which
now works in the sons of disobedience," Satan. Trinitarian dogma is the
HEART of the RCC and derivative churches and the CATALYST by which Satan
is worshipped as Yeshua/Yhwh.
BGE:
I think that the Messianic movement has tried to come
> up with a diagram of what the scripture seems to be saying and I would add
> that it is hard to clarify something that is not clear to begin with.
Hayal Talmid:
As I have said, scripture clearly does not teach trinitarian dogma.
Messianic Judaism is a mixture of things labeled "Jewish" and other
things labeled "Christian," some Biblical and some not. When I started
a Messianic congregation in Houston in the '80's, I did the same thing
at first because I didn't know any better, but I have learned better.
Messianic Judaism retains trinitarian dogma because trinitarian dogma is
very powerful, very deceptive, not to mention lucrative, but this
addiction soon will prove very expensive indeed.
What we must do now is to distinguish what is BIBLICAL from what is not,
keep the Biblical stuff and junk the other stuff, Jewish, Christian, or
whatever it may be. This is what I mean by nontrinitarian, Biblical
Messianic Judaism. Messianic leaders claim to do this, but they don't go far enough.
BGE:
> > On the Gospel side of things, I mean laying out the plan of salvation not
> trying to tell somebody they have the mark of the beast or have accepted
> mystery Babylon.
Hayal Talmid:
As I have said before, if one has the "mark of the beast," one will not
be saved. It is not I who am saying this. It is Yhwh:
Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on
his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He
shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy
angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and
they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and
whoever receives the mark of his name."
Does that sound like salvation? It sounds an awful lot like damnation
to me.
This is Yhwh's way of doing things. Who are we to argue?
Shalom for now,
Hayal Talmid More on the "deity" of the Messiah or Return to 'Trinitarian Dogma: The Very . . ."