BGE wrote:

> Hayal,

> I am going to take some time this 4 day weekend and compile my answers.

> Like you I believe scripture, and am very keen to preserve what is clear

> from scripture.

The area of sound doctrine and right biblical teaching is

> something I would die to preserve. Is Yeshua 100% the Father? No, but it

> is clear from one of his names that he is "G­D with us".

Hayal Talmid:

The name "Immanuel" means that Yhwh is IN Yeshua, not that Yeshua IS

Yhwh. It is a slight, but absolutely critical difference. Yeshua is a

reflection or "express image"of Yhwh, like a mirror image, but a mirror

image is not "ontologically equal" to the one looking in the mirror.

Shatter the mirror, and the mirror image is gone. The one looking in

the mirror, though, doesn't necessarily disappear just because the

mirror is shattered. So likewise, Yhwh did not die just because Yeshua

was crucified, which is another disproof of "ontological equality" and

the "deity" of Yeshua.

Spirits can and do "inhabit" or "dwell in" people, but that doesn't

mean that those spirits ARE those people. The Spirit of Yhwh dwelt in

many Biblical heroes. In Yeshua, the "fullness of the Godhead DWELT

bodily," but that doesn't mean that Yeshua IS the Godhead.

Yeshua is a FUNCTION of Yhwh: Y = f(x), where Y = Yeshua, and x =

Yhwh. Yeshua is the "DEPENDENT variable." Yhwh is the "INDEPENDENT

variable." This is not "ontological equality," i.e. x = x, but if you

delve into trinitarian theology, you will find that the "ontological

equality" of Yhwh and Yeshua is absolutely PIVOTAL and is exactly what

is meant by the doctrine of the "deity" of Yeshua. It is an

over­literalization of "Immanuel," just as "transubstantiation" is an

over­literalization of Yeshua's commandment to "eat my flesh and drink

my blood." Both the "deity" of Yeshua and the doctrine of

"transubstantiation" are examples of the same 'over­literalization' or

the IDENTIFICATION OF A SYMBOL AS THE THING SYMBOLIZED. It is as if the

American flag, which symbolizes America, were regarded mystically as

America itself, not just a symbol. This is the idea of idolatry, too,

in which the true believer believes that the idol really is a god,

really is alive and powerful.

This is also probably the MAIN Jewish objection to Christianity, the

"transubstantiation" of Yeshua into Yhwh, which is regarded, and rightly

so, as idolatry. The imposition of the doctrine of the "deity" of

Yeshua in Messianic Judaism today, not to mention the doctrine of the

trinity, perpetuates this problem and, most importantly, turns YHWH

against Messianic Judaism. We will lose the battles ahead under these

circumstances. Yhwh will not back us up so long as we have this

"accursed Babylonian garment" among us:

Josh 7:11 "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My

covenant which I commanded them. For they have even taken some of the

accursed [Babylonian] things, and have both stolen and deceived; and

they have also put it among their own stuff.

Josh 7:12 "Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before

their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they

have become doomed to destruction. NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANYMORE,

UNLESS YOU DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU.

JOSH 7:13 "GET UP, SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE, AND SAY, 'SANCTIFY YOURSELVES

FOR TOMORROW, BECAUSE THUS SAYS YHWH GOD OF ISRAEL: "THERE IS AN

ACCURSED THING IN YOUR MIDST, O ISRAEL; YOU CANNOT STAND BEFORE YOUR

ENEMIES UNTIL YOU TAKE AWAY THE ACCURSED THING FROM AMONG YOU."

Hear my words! The situation now is the SAME as it was in this

passage! The story in Joshua of the Battle of Ai is a PARABLE.

Trinitarian dogma is that "accursed Babylonian thing," and those who are

imposing trinitarian dogma in Messianic Judaism today are "Achan," i.e.

TROUBLE.

BGE: I tend to want to

> live by faith and by the principle that if G­D wanted me to understand all

> of this fully He would have written it in His word clearly. He did not.

Hayal Talmid:

I do not deny that there are hidden things in scripture, but scripture

is clear, too. Scripture does not teach trinitarian dogma. Trinitarian

dogma is anything but clear. Scripture teaches that Yhwh is infinite,

which is why He is "invisible." Do you know what a "GUI" is? A

"graphical user interface"? Yeshua is like a GUI. He is like those

objects on the computer screen, with which we can deal with the

computer, but a GUI is not "ontologically equal" to the computer. A GUI is made of computer

language, but it also consists of human language and ties the user and

the computer together. Yeshua is like that, but trinitarian dogma says,

in effect, that a GUI is "ontologically equal," "one in being" to the computer, which is

an overstatement.

BGE:

> So here we are, still to some degree talking in circles.

Hayal Talmid:

Please explain how I am talking in circles. I don't think I am. I

think I am talking straight.

BGE:

One thing I do

> not believe is that if you believe in a triune view of G­D you have the

> mark of the beast.

Hayal Talmid:

Why not? This is what the evidence indicates. Most Jews don't believe

that it's important for them to believe in Yeshua, but it is. It is a

matter, not only of life and death but of salvation and damnation. Why,

then, should it not be a matter of life and death, or worse, to believe

that trinitarian dogma is "accursed"? If, because of rebelliousness,

Yhwh hides the Truth from most Jews, why, for the same reason, should He

not do the same thing in the case of rebellious Christianity? Indeed,

Yhwh is doing exactly what He said He would do:

Jer 25:12 'Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed,

that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the

Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says Yhwh; 'and I will make it a

perpetual desolation.

Jer 25:13 'So I will bring on that land all My words which I have

pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah

has prophesied concerning all the nations.

Jer 25:14 '(For many nations and great kings shall be served by them

also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to

the works of their own hands.)'"

Jer 25:15 For thus says Yhwh God of Israel to me: "Take this WINE CUP

OF FURY from My hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send you, to

drink it.

Jer 25:16 "And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the

sword that I will send among them."

Jer 25:17 Then I took the cup from Yhwh's hand, and made all the

nations drink, to whom Yhwh had sent me:

Jer 25:18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and its princes,

to make them a desolation, an astonishment, a hissing, and a curse, as

it is this day;

Jer 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his princes, and all his

people;

Jer 25:20 all the mixed multitude, all the kings of the land of Uz, all

the kings of the land of the Philistines (namely, Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron,

and the remnant of Ashdod);

Jer 25:21 Edom, Moab, and the people of Ammon;

Jer 25:22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings

of the coastlands which are across the sea;

Jer 25:23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who are in the farthest corners;

Jer 25:24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed

multitude who dwell in the desert;

Jer 25:25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the

kings of the Medes;

JER 25:26 ALL THE KINGS OF THE NORTH, FAR AND NEAR, ONE WITH ANOTHER;

AND ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD WHICH ARE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

Also the king of sheshach shall drink after them.

JER 25:27 "THEREFORE YOU SHALL SAY TO THEM, 'THUS SAYS YHWH OF HOSTS,

THE GOD OF ISRAEL: "DRINK, BE DRUNK, AND VOMIT! FALL AND RISE NO MORE,

BECAUSE OF THE SWORD WHICH I WILL SEND AMONG YOU."'

JER 25:28 "AND IT SHALL BE, IF THEY REFUSE TO TAKE THE CUP FROM YOUR

HAND TO DRINK, THEN YOU SHALL SAY TO THEM, 'THUS SAYS YHWH OF HOSTS:

"YOU SHALL CERTAINLY DRINK!

JER 25:29 "FOR BEHOLD, I BEGIN TO BRING CALAMITY ON THE CITY WHICH IS

CALLED BY MY NAME, AND SHOULD YOU BE UTTERLY UNPUNISHED? YOU SHALL NOT

BE UNPUNISHED, FOR I WILL CALL FOR A SWORD ON ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE

EARTH," SAYS YHWH OF HOSTS.'

Jer 25:30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to

them: 'Yhwh will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy

habitation; He will ROAR MIGHTILY against His fold. He will give a

SHOUT, as those who tread the grapes, Against ALL the inhabitants of the

earth.

Jer 25:31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth; For Yhwh has a

controversy with the NATIONS; He will plead His case with ALL FLESH. He

will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says Yhwh."

Jer 25:32 Thus says Yhwh of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth

From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the

farthest parts of the earth.

Jer 25:33 "And at that day the slain of Yhwh shall be from one end of

the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be

lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the

ground.

Jer 25:34 "Wail, SHEPHERDS, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You

LEADERS of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your

dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel.

Jer 25:35 And the SHEPHERDS will have no way to flee, Nor the LEADERS

of the flock to escape.

Jer 25:36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, And a wailing of the

leaders to the flock will be heard. For Yhwh has plundered their

pasture,

Jer 25:37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down Because of the fierce

anger of Yhwh.

Jer 25:38 He has left His lair like the lion; For their land is

desolate Because of the fierceness of the Oppressor, And because of His

fierce anger."

The "king of Babylon" in this passage also refers to the "god of this

age," i.e. Satan. The "Diaspora" is like a giant Babylonian captivity.

After Yhwh punishes Yisrael in the Diaspora and the "age of the

Gentiles," He will punish the nations, as described here. This is what

it means when it says in verse 29 that Yhwh will "bring calamity on the

city which is called by my name, and should you (Gentiles, "nations") be utterly unpunished?

You (Gentiles, "nations") shall not be unpunished, for I will call for a sword on all the

inhabitants of the earth." First Yhwh is punishing the Jews, just as He

did during the Babylonian captivity. Then Yhwh will punish the nations,

just as He punished ancient Babylon. The "cup of Yhwh's fury" is the

"secret doctrine" of antiquity, especially including the central ritual

of the ancient mysteries, which was a secret, which was transformed into

the Catholic "mass," which was forced upon the nations. Roman

Catholicism in particular is based upon the identification of Yeshua as

the sun god, Zeus, the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit which

now works in the sons of disobedience," Satan. Trinitarian dogma is the

HEART of the RCC and derivative churches and the CATALYST by which Satan

is worshipped as Yeshua/Yhwh.

BGE:

I think that the Messianic movement has tried to come

> up with a diagram of what the scripture seems to be saying and I would add

> that it is hard to clarify something that is not clear to begin with.

Hayal Talmid:

As I have said, scripture clearly does not teach trinitarian dogma.

Messianic Judaism is a mixture of things labeled "Jewish" and other

things labeled "Christian," some Biblical and some not. When I started

a Messianic congregation in Houston in the '80's, I did the same thing

at first because I didn't know any better, but I have learned better.

Messianic Judaism retains trinitarian dogma because trinitarian dogma is

very powerful, very deceptive, not to mention lucrative, but this

addiction soon will prove very expensive indeed.

What we must do now is to distinguish what is BIBLICAL from what is not,

keep the Biblical stuff and junk the other stuff, Jewish, Christian, or

whatever it may be. This is what I mean by non­trinitarian, Biblical

Messianic Judaism. Messianic leaders claim to do this, but they don't go far enough.

BGE:

> > On the Gospel side of things, I mean laying out the plan of salvation not

> trying to tell somebody they have the mark of the beast or have accepted

> mystery Babylon.

Hayal Talmid:

As I have said before, if one has the "mark of the beast," one will not

be saved. It is not I who am saying this. It is Yhwh:

Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on

his forehead or on his hand,

Rev 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God,

which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He

shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy

angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and

they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and

whoever receives the mark of his name."

Does that sound like salvation? It sounds an awful lot like damnation

to me.

This is Yhwh's way of doing things. Who are we to argue?

Shalom for now,

Hayal Talmid More on the "deity" of the Messiah or Return to 'Trinitarian Dogma: The Very . . ."